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Inspection II Service!

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PaulW View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 8:24pm
Hi Folks,
I would value your opinion please.

Earlier this week I phoned my local main dealer inquiring as to the cost of an inspection 2 service on my E46 M3.  The polite lady on the service desk asked for my registration followed by "is it a 4 or 6 cylinder"!!
I replied 6. Confused The price came back £369, wow I thought and inquired as to whether this was correct, "yes" was the reply.  I asked her to please check with the service manager.  Upon her return she apologised, as it should have been £899.  I asked could she send an itemised list of what work would be done.
To cut a long story short and on the second attempt this is what I received.
I apologise for the wrong information being sent yesterday, there was a problem with our system. Please see below the correct info for an inspection 2 service.

All undergoing a comprehensive inspection, the oil and oil filter in your BMW are replaced along with the all important microfilter. The spark plugs (petrol) or fuel filter (diesel) and engine air filter are also replaced to maintain performance and efficiency.

As part of this full service, BMW trained technicians will remove the used oil from your engine, replace the used oil filter with a new, Genuine BMW filter and then refill your BMW engine using only BMW approved oil. The used cabin microfilter(s) will also be replaced with Genuine BMW filter(s) helping to maintain a clean breathing environment inside your car. To ensure your engine remains at its optimum, the engine air filter and spark plugs (petrol) or fuel filter (diesel) will also be replaced with Genuine BMW parts. Your technician will also thoroughly inspect your BMW against a comprehensive list of electrical and fluid systems for safety and functionality. In addition, your BMW will be returned to you washed and vacuumed with an updated BMW service history.

* Check lighting system.
* Check instrument and indication field lighting, check heater blower.
* Check Horn, headlight flasher and hazard warning lights.
* Seat belts: check condition of belt strap, function of inertia reel mechanism, locking reel, and belt buckle.
* Check battery: acid level, charge state
* Heating / air conditioning microfilter(s) is replaced
* Body checked for corrosion.
* Diagnosis brief test.
* Replace engine oil and oil filter.
* Check coolant level.
* Check windscreen washer and intensive cleaning systems: fluid levels.
* Check Steering fluid reservoir: fluid level.
* Replace spark plugs (if petrol).
* Intake silencer: replace air filter element.
* Check brake pad thickness
* Check brake disc surfaces and thickness.
* Check steering components: check for clearance, leaks, damage and wear.
* Check under-body including all visible parts: check for damage, leaks and corrosion.
* Check brake lines and connections: visually inspect for leaks, damage and correct position.
* Check handbrake function.
* Check tyres for inflation pressures, external condition, tread depth and tread pattern.
* Replace main fuel filter (if diesel).
* Exterior is washed
* Interior is vacuumed
* BMW Service history is updated
All Genuine BMW parts come with a BMW 2 year fitted parts warranty.

Inspection II is a major service, so I would have expected everything listed as a minimum. Additionally I would have expected all fluids to be changed, not just the engine oil but also the differential oil, gear box oil, brake fluid, coolant and all filters including the fuel filter.
I don't want to appear flippant, but I know if my horn and indicators are working and whether I've got washer fluid in my bottle and whether my tyre pressures are correct, to name a few.
Surely this is not a major service for £899?

Paul
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pbraden View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pbraden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 9:33pm
Paul, this seems to be rather high! I recently had my Alpina B10 3.3 and with a few tweaks it was done by the dealer for around £300. I know the M3's can be higher than the Alpina but not that much surely!

Which dealer did you ring?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 10:13pm
Hi,
From my experience this is (899) about the figure quoted to me on the 'value' service deal for an inspec 11 on an e46 m3. The valves are also adjusted and set in this. Yep though, lots of things included that are trivial. ...
Tim whitaker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 9:18am
Regards your question concerning oil - the gearbox will have lifetime oil and the diff SAFXJ they will check but not change on an Inspection 2 - it is a major service and yes many people could do many of the jobs themselves or you could have another garage do the work but lose your full dealer history - its that and the labour rate with it being an M car thats bumping it up....did you mention you were a carclub member as for older cars there should be a discount if produce your card...if you want to take it to another garage maybe I can suggest someone local to you ...but you need to consider the pros and cons given its an E46 M3 not basic model etc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 12:35pm
Thanks for your replies.
What I find frustrating is that I've believe I've been sent a generic service list. I appreciate that there are items that are checked matter of course whether I can do them myself or not.  However, being an enthusiast I want to know that the main items are accounted for.  I've learnt the hard way never to assume, even when you would think the professionals know best!
 
The list which was sent me mentions nothing about tappet clearance check, however this I know should be covered. Although I know its debatable as some dealers do and some dealers don't!  However, they do state that they will wash and vacuum my car, which I always politely decline.
As tappet clearance check is not on the list do I assume its not covered and if requested its an extra charge.
 
They put so much emphasis on changing the oil with only BMW approved oil and filter!! which you would expect as a minimum anyway, is as if that's the only thing people are concerned about.  I change the oil myself between services with BMW approved Castrol Edge 10w-60 and BMW's genuine filter.
 
On a car that's only worth 10k why spend 1k on a dealer service which in my opinion would appear to be not good value based on what has been listed, just so I have a dealer stamp.
 
Which BMW dealerships in the Chester region do you use/rate?
 
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 2:30pm
Maybe they would charge extra for the unlisted valve clearance check and adjustment!  In many case the customer is charged as if all clearances needed to be re-shimmed, when in practice only 2 or 3 would need adjustment.

No mention has been made of checking the handbrake shoes - which require the rear brake discs and their calipers to be removed.  The caliper bracket mounting bolts are usually being rusted solid, this being the main additional labour value for the huge difference between Insp 1 and Insp 2, plus the valve clearances, which is nothing special in terms of either skill level or time.  Enough cars have had shimmed valve clearances, such as Golf GTIs etc without the ridiculous differential charged for an M3 engine.

As you suggested, most of the work is nothing which you cannot do yourself, so unless you have an unhealthy addiction to BMW dealer rubber stamps, go to an independant specialist for this work, as your car is now nothing but an old BMW, which is not worth much more than the £900 asked for the work involved!

If you want stamps, go tothe post office, whose stamps have a bit more use than those of a BMW dealership!


Edited by Mike Fishwick - 26 Jun 2015 at 2:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 4:10pm
Both Inspection 1 & 2 (should) include valve clearance checks.

Inspection 2 adds spark plugs, air filter (I used to do mine with every oil service though), gearbox & diff oil changes (I make every inspection an Inspection 2).

If you want to double-check what should be done on any specific service, then this is all listed in your service booklet.

However, I've heard of a few dealers (2nd hand reports on the Z4-Forum) that some dealers are not doing valve clearance checks on inspections "unless the car doesn't sound right"! If that's the case then the cost should be no different than a non-M service.





Edited by Tony - 26 Jun 2015 at 4:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 4:15pm
Note that if the shims are to be checked properly the engine must be cold, that is overnight cold. If the service is not an overnighter then you know for sure the shims have not been done.

Fuel filters should be changed but very few are. Ask any independent garage and they will say they have not seen them changed on cars that have had the three year service plans etc.

As a matter of course I always ask for the used parts to be put in the boot. This nifty trick caught out a well known dealership in Nottingham. I had such a bother getting them to first admit to needing to replace the oil breather and actually getting them to.

As for the shims I bought the special tool needed to compress the valve springs for less than the cost of a garage doing the job. Also by doing the job yourself you only pay for the shims needed. I remember the last time I did it, I needed only to swap two shims around and buy one replacement, This is on an engine that has done just over 100,000 miles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MHunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 5:40pm
on a point of detail I dont think the E46 M3 uses shims for valve clearances.  I know this should make an inspection 2 easier and cheaper than is the case for an E36 M3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 8:55pm
I have no objection about spending hard earned money on my cars.  Its something I'm passionate about just like you folks, all I want is value for money when it comes to servicing.  I've used independents in the past, but thought on this occasion I would check with my dealership.  I put far more value on a well respected independent / dealer stamp than just having a dealer stamp for the sake of it.  As you say Mike, otherwise you may as well stick a postage stamp in there!

Tony the reason I asked for a list was to check against what should be done, but as you can see they are polls apart!

Robert, I to ask for the parts back, especially the ones you can't see ;)

MHunt, the E46 M3 does use shims for valve clearance.

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 7:42am
If the valve clearances change so much that they need to be adjusted at every Inspection 1 and 2 there is something seriously wrong, or they have not been set properly.

As I stated prviously, shimmed valves are not exactly a new idea, and on a Golf GTI or a BMW K100 motorcycle engine, onmce the engine is settled down - say 10,000 miles -  they seldom need to be adjusted at less than 50,000 mile intervals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpennington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 8:07am
To put your mind at rest as to know if parts have been changed when using main stealers, is to put a small mark on the items that should be changed but obviously only that you know is there. That way you will have an indication as to whether it's been replaced.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 8:54am
That will not tell you if the engine oil has been drained while it was hot - and in any case it is now sucked out via the dipstick hole, which does not remove much of the sludge which can be produced by extended oil changes, particularly if changed while cold, as is now quite common practice in many agrages.

Neither does it tell if the small 'O' rings inside the oil filter have been replaced - at 2 pence each it is false economy not to follow the BMW TIS manual and replace them - although it has been claimed by some apologists that they are special 'Long Life' rings, and do not need to be replaced - if you believe that you probably also believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neilb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 1:34pm
When I was looking at E46M3's a couple if years an an Inspection II was listed at about £1300! As said they now come under the 'Value' servicing so that has dropped considerably to what you were quoted. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Mike Fishwick Mike Fishwick wrote:

If the valve clearances change so much that they need to be adjusted at every Inspection 1 and 2 there is something seriously wrong, or they have not been set properly.

As I stated prviously, shimmed valves are not exactly a new idea, and on a Golf GTI or a BMW K100 motorcycle engine, onmce the engine is settled down - say 10,000 miles -  they seldom need to be adjusted at less than 50,000 mile intervals.

My e34 M5 had shims done every 12,000 miles - sometime nothing needed changing, other times it was 8-12 shims.

The S54 only has them done every other service, which works out at about 26000-30,000 miles between checks.

My Z4MC has needed between 3 and 5 shims at each Inspection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2015 at 11:30am
It depends on how the clearances were set Tony - if an exact figure was used - say 0.004" then a small difference could cause a re-shimming exercise.

For this reason almost all engines are specified with a tolerance - for example 0.004" - 0.006".  The clearances would therefore be set at 0.006" and not reshimmed until they reached 0.004".  It is almost unknown to find an engine which really requires an exact clearance, and most perform better with a little more valve clearance, which they will retain for at least 50,000 miles. 

To specify an exact clearance is simply another means of extracting money from the owner, something which companies such as BMW are adept at doing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BSS. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 6:53pm
So much mis information on this thread. Some of you should really do your homework before commenting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 7:23pm
\Barry if there was a like button I would hit it...this is the problem the dealers face everyday sadly it also appears to be a problem of trust ....but it was fun watching it develop
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neilb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 9:09pm
I rode and worked on big Kawasakis for years (16V Bucket and Shim Valve adjustment) After the first adjustment they rarely needed more then one or two shims per check. The service mileage escapes me now but it was more frequent than cars..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davebrindlee36m3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2015 at 12:34pm
If you know so much BSS , Then why dont you post the correct information so as to help our fello Member Paul W. Instead of posting negative comments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MHunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2015 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by davebrindlee36m3 davebrindlee36m3 wrote:

If you know so much BSS , Then why dont you post the correct information so as to help our fello Member Paul W. Instead of posting negative comments.
 
+1. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BSS. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2015 at 1:17pm
No problem, I will write a more in depth reply this eve when in front of my computer instead of my phone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote BSS. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2015 at 9:45pm
Right where to start?

My qualification on this matter for those that may not know is myself having previously owned an E46 M3 and more importantly, being a time served BMW trained ATA senior technician, now working for Munich legends again as a senior technician.

As most of you know, BMW's older models servicing patern is oil service, inspection 1, oil service, inspection 2 then repeat this cycle.

With regards to the E46 M3, valve clearances are done on every inspection 1 and 2. Agreed, rumours about bonus driven techs in the BMW dealer network not doing valve clearance check and adjust is true to an extent, it realy is luck of the draw I'm afraid and scarily enough even some "BMW specialists" do not include it in their inspection services and charge extra for this item!

Let's concentrate on the inspection 2 as this is the most expensive and comprehensive of the services for the E46 M3.
BMW set the time for an inspection 2 at 5 hours and this includes the valve clearance check and adjust.
It also includes changing the diff oil (SAF-XJ) and gearbox oil (BMW LT2) as well as the engine oil and filter (10w60) also changed is the air filter, micro filter and spark plugs.
Interestingly, BMW's guidelines for the inspection 2 do not include replacing the fuel filter BUT BMW now offer all the parts required to do an inspection 2 service as a "value line" kit which is what is used on the £895 fixed price and this includes a fuel filter!
Because BMW guidelines for the inspection 2 do not include the replacement of the fuel filter, it's not uncommon to find an E46 M3 which has solely been dealer serviced still on the original fuel filter... they are date stamped!
Back to valve clearances, on a well maintained car that's sympathetically used ie not thrashed from cold or bounced off the limiter all the time then yes one or two shims may be all it needs to correct them back into tolerance but it's not uncommon to need to chance many on a car that has not thus treated!

For example today I completed an inspection 2 on a 37k mile from new E46 M3 and it needed 20 of the 24 clearances adjusting, clearly a car that had never had them done.

The tolerance is 0.18-0.23 mm inlet and 0.28-0.33 exhaust for the S54 engine.

With regards to dealers sucking oil out, this is another rumour that seems to be circulating forum world when the reality is quite the oposite. Having worked for four different BMW dealers, knowing plenty of other techs within the network that work at other dealers I can hand on heart say I've never seen it.
It is or no benefit to suck oil out, some more cynical may say it's quicker but the reality is when you are draining the oil from the sump, you normally carry out other tasks under the car such as inspecting the various other components such as tyres, suspension etc or ....replacing the fuel filter!

As for the "check list" that you are paying for inclusive of the service, you are essentialy paying for an experienced and trained technician to inspect the car for any other issues that should be repaired as preventative maintainence, some of which that are common to the E46 M3 but owners may not know about or be able to spot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul.R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2015 at 11:05pm
Eastern bmw in Edinburgh suck the oil out Barry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MHunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2015 at 6:58am
Thx bss. V helpful. Someone told me once that the s54 engine is less work to do the clearances than on the s50. This is what i misremembered in my post above. Is that right, an if yes, why ? Many thx.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BSS. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2015 at 11:09am
Very surprised to hear of a BMW dealer sucking oil out because as I said, there is no beneficial gain from doing so. Every BMW has an easily accessible sump drain plug.

Is this something you have seen first hand or just hearsay?

As for S54 vs S50 valve clearance adjustment, the shims on an S54 are very small in comparison so S50's and all other shim over bucket M power engines which means the shim is actually easier to remove from the bucket as the film of oil between the shim and bucket causes them to stick together when trying to pull apart and the bigger the shim the greater the force required to remove.
On the larger shimmed engine, compressed air is normally used to "pop" the shim off where as on the S54 a small magnet is enough.
This means it's a marginally quicker procedure on the S54.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 2:15pm
I have heard of oil being sucked out, from an ex-BMW dealer tech, the advantage being that it does not tie up a car lift while the oil is being drained, and in some cases the undertray being removed. It is also common in VAG garages too, the result being that a lot of Golf 1.8 T-type engines (180 bhp 1.8 litre turbo petrol engine) sufferred from sludge deposits blocking the oil filter pick-up strainer with damage to their 'VANOS' type units, followed by hydraulic tappets and then the camshaft bearings - effectively writing off the cars.

It all depends on if your car is serviced properly, and many workshop people are under pressure to cut the agreed time for work.  One example I know of was a MINI which after a major service, including brake fluid replacement, was returned with no rubber bleed nipple covers and nipples which were filled with dry mud!  The Dealer Principal eventually admitted fault, and claimed that the offending Tech had been dismissed - but he was back again a week later!  He had probably been  pressured to cut corners.

My dealer man told me this was common practice in their chain, where a brake fluid change was done by sucking out the reservoir and refilling it again in order to save time.  More examples where time is money.

The S54 valve clearance business is surprising, though, and certainly looks as if these engines have a weak point in the valve train - so much for them being 'sought after!'


Edited by Mike Fishwick - 02 Jul 2015 at 2:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 10:08pm
Having worked and raced S50 b30 b32 and S54 they are better but also more powerful and available where the earlier engines are rare hence desirable

I CANT believe anyone even a guy without a lift would suck oil out...in all my years not seen or heard of it at a BMW dealer or specialist ....to do any inspection properly takes time but if you know what looking for or likely things ti check its quicker....if you don't like or trust your dealer or mechanic its time to find another

Edited sorry

Edited by Cabrio - 02 Jul 2015 at 10:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BSS. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 10:26pm
Was that meant to "can't belive" Neil?

And Mike, every car that comes into a Bmw dealer is meant to have a vehicle health check and this involves inspecting the car on ramp. Also every tech has his own ramp so it would not be "tied up" so to speak when doing a service.

Also, please elaborate on what you percive to be a weak point in the S54 valve train.

As for VAG dealer stuff that's by the by. Different manufacturer, different guide lines.

Obviously you are going to get instances where poor quality of service has arisen, law of averages dictates this but I won't hear of people tarring all of us with the same brush and to generalise and stereotype all dealers the same is very naive.
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Mike Fishwick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 9:46am
Please don't get defensive Barry - all systems have their weak members, including BMW.  You can dismiss any criticism you want to, but that merely makes one wonder why . . .

Perhaps bleed nipples full of mud is a sign of excellence?

With regard tothe S54 - you are the expert - so tell us why it is apparently normal that this engine seems to wear its valve train at such a rate - I'm just glad I do not have one!

My experience of BMW after-sales service was that - while the car was within its New Car Warranty -  neither my local dealer in Plymouth, nor BMW(GB) were at all interested in the usual Z3 water leaks at the upper ends of the screen.  I had the distinct impression that effective claims under warranty or any 'Goodwill'  were reserved for people who had bought their BMW when new . . . which with an Inspection 2 coming in the near future simply persuaded me that DIY servicing was going to be the future.  

If you doubt me, just read the various BMW Service Instructions which advise the dealers to only pursue some well-known faults (such as erratic fuel gauge readings) in cases of 'Repeated customer complaint.'  In other words, to fob the customer off for as long as possible!  This type of thing is the reason why specialists such as Munich Legends have a good reputation for service, and tend to attract the better technical people away from dealers.
A Z3 is not just for Christmas - it's for life!
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